FT922-4421 _AN-CFEA9AD7FT 920605 FT 05 JUN 92 / Survey of South Africa (20): 'De Klerk is clinging to levers of power' - Mr Nelson Mandela, president of the African National Congress (ANC), speaks of his concerns and outlines his vision of a new South Africa By RICHARD LAMBERT, MICHAEL HOLMAN, PATTI WALDMWIR and PHILIP GAWITH What are the most important themes in South Africa today? Nelson Mandela: The most important development in the country is the Convention for a Democratic South Africa (Codesa) . . . Problems have arisen serious enough to destabilise negotiations. There is the question of the violence which has been raging since 1984 in the course of which more than 13,000 innocent people have been killed. We have believed throughout that the government had the capacity to put an end to the violence . . . but our view has been that for one reason or other the government is reluctant to use its capacity. That was disturbing enough but it is the involvement of Mr (FW) de Klerk, the head of government, that has disturbed us most . . . The total pattern (of the violence) is trying to destabilise the ANC . . . and it seems clear to us that the idea is to prevent a democratic government dominated by the ANC. No doubt De Klerk does want fundamental democratic change, but what he does not want is to have a democratic government dominated by the ANC. In spite of the fact that he wants democratic changes, nevertheless he is clinging to the levers of power . . . which they have enjoyed for the last 44 years. These two issues threaten the whole negotiating process. But we are determined that this process should succeed and that is why we are demanding the immediate installation of an interim government which will be representative of all national groups. One of the aims of the interim government would have to be to take over security and it is only then that we hope it will be possible for us to restrain the enemies which perpetrate this violence. What is your concept of power-sharing after the interim period? NM: We have come out with a very clear policy . . . we call for one person one vote. We call for a bill of rights . . . we call for an independent judiciary which will entrench the powers set out in the bill of rights. Even when a democratic government is installed, no minority group should be disadvantaged because the constitution is going to be drawn up by a body which has been established through free and fair elections. We go further to say that the amendment of the constitution should be done by a two-thirds majority. We also go further to say that the new parliament should be built on the principle of proportional representation so that every political party which gets above a certain percentage of votes will be represented . . . I think we have done everything which would be expected in a democratic country. What we are not prepared to do is to give power to a minority of less than 15 per cent of the population, as the whites are, give them the right to veto the decisions of a majority taken lawfully in parliament. No country has ever done that and that is what De Klerk wants. That he cannot get. That we cannot accept. But we are very concerned that if the first government should really receive the support of the population not only by virtue of the fact that the majority will have voted for it, but that it should be seen to represent everybody, we should inspire confidence among all the national groups in the country . . . assuming the ANC gets an overall majority in the forthcoming election, it would be proper to build this national confidence to offer parties which have lost, a seat in parliament. Would you extend the question of proportional representation beyond the national assembly into the executive? NM: No . . . (but) of course we are going to make sure that the executive is representative of the national groups in the country. When we say that we want a government of national unity, we mean it. National unity can only mean that the institutions of government . . . should be representative of all groups. But that will be a decision which will be taken (by the government) not as a result of the constitution. What will you do about the civil service? NM: The details of what will be done by a democratic government (will) depend on the conditions that exist at the time. It suffices to say that we do not intend to throw people into the streets simply because a democratic government has been installed. What we are determined to do is to democratise the civil service to ensure that it is representative of all groups. This will be done in a humane manner. We will also look at the fact that the civil service is too big and the country cannot carry such a service. These questions will be examined very carefully but in such a way as not to create any dislocation, any turmoil. What is important is not only to attain victory for democracy, it is to retain democracy, and that is not going to be very easy. We have to be absolutely careful as to how and in what manner we will bring about changes in the civil service. Should there be a clause in the constitution on affirmative action? NM: We are suggesting only that we are concerned to put in the constitution that the economy of the country must be developed in such a way as to promote the welfare of all population groups and leave the details to be worked out as we tackle specific problems. Negotiations seem to be proceeding very slowly . . . NM: If one takes into account the background of our country the fact that over two years we have made such progress is to me in itself a miracle . . . what we are not prepared for is to have experiments on democracy . . . in this country the simple fact has been and still is today that a party which polls the most votes is called upon to run the country. There is no reason why it should change simply because Africans or blacks are on the verge of having an effective say in any future government. 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