FBIS3-43551 "drafr006_c_94005"
FBIS-AFR-94-006 Document Type:Daily Report 10 Jan 1994
REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA

Mandela Interviewed on Violence, Economy, Politics

MB1001095094 Johannesburg SABC TV 1 Network in English 1815 GMT 9 Jan 94 MB1001095094 Johannesburg SABC TV 1 Network Language: English Article Type:BFN [Interview with ANC President Nelson Mandela by SABC presenter John Bishop, in the Johannesburg studio, on the Agenda Program -- live] [Text] [Bishop] Welcome back. Our promised interview with Mr. Nelson Mandela, the ANC [African National Congress] president, whose organization, I'm sure you know, has just celebrated its 82d birthday, and issued a major policy statement. As you probably also know all parties in the country are gearing up for their promised elections, and the papers are full of the contenders criticizing and attacking one another in print. But there has been a serious attack earlier today at Katlehong. When I welcome you Mr. Mandela I want to put that question to you? [Mandela] Thank you. [Bishop] Your comments on that -- that Katlehong incident. [Mandela] What happened today, to the secretary general of the ANC, and the chairman of the South African Communist Party [SACP], must be condemned in the strongest terms. It shows in a very clear manner how the people in that area live. I spoke to Mr. de Klerk today the moment Comrade Ramaphosa reported the incident to me, and he had promised to go into the matter and come back to me. I am meeting him on Tuesday morning, and I have got a specific proposal to make to him. If he does not act on that proposal, then South Africa is facing a crisis. [Bishop] Can you give us any details of that? [Mandela] It is better for me not to do so, and it will give him the opportunity of examining the proposal, and deciding what he should do about it, that he'll understand that we cannot allow a situation where a hostel has now become the center of the most blatant criminal action, and without the police doing anything. What is going to be of interest, is what action the police are going to take. Are they going to raid the hostel? When are they going to do so? Will they in the course of that raid seize the illegal weapons in that hostel? Arrest the culprits? That is going to be very interesting. [Bishop] Just to remind our viewers, if you've just tuned in, there's been a really awful attack at Katlehong earlier today. One journalist was killed, several were wounded, and it was the occasion when Mr. Slovo and Cyril Ramaphosa, and Carl Niehaus and others, were walking towards the area, to inspect the area. Is that it? [Mandela] Yes, they went there to see for themselves how people in this area are living in the light of the accusations and counter- accusations that have been made. And I think that the public now has got an idea of what is happing there, because the shooting started from the hostel without any provocation. [Bishop] What about the argument, I think that there is an argument, that the ANC had constantly said they don't want the police around them when they go and visit the people. Is there anything in that argument? [Mandela] There is no excuse for the police not doing their duty of maintaining law and order. [Bishop] They were told about the... [Mandela, interrupting]...Whether we want the police to be with us or not is irrelevant. The police should not allow any people to fire at innocent residents going about with their normal duties. [Bishop] I think they were in fact informed. Were they? Some of your people told me earlier... [Text] [Mandela] On Friday the Regional Executive Committee of the PWV [Pretoria, Witwatersrand, Vereeniging] area informed the police. Even quite apart from that it was well publicized that the secretary general and the chairman of the South African Communist Party were visiting the area. If the police did not know that they were visiting then they are not worth to be policemen. [Bishop] Well, of course, we have no police here, so we better not keep it one-sided I think. Could I just leave it for you at the moment? You are going to see everybody of course, soon, about this, and leave this incident and move on to the general question of violence in the country? [Mandela] You're welcome. [Bishop] Thank you. What are we going to do, Mr. Mandela? First of all, can I suggest that all parties perhaps should stop accusing each other? Is it possible to come to that kind of agreement? [Mandela] Before I answer your question, I want to state very clearly that whatever I'm going to say, my approach to problems, my conduct and my statements are influenced by the objective of building a new South Africa, of urging all leaders of various political formations to join in trying to build a new South Africa. I'm interested in stability both politically an economically so that we can attract investment in our country, because without those investments we are unable to make the breakthrough which all of us desire. I am, therefore, going to say that you can't avoid discussing the policies of other political parties which are involved in the election. It happens all over the world and South Africa is no exception. But the point is that whatever we say must be influenced by the idea of building a new South Africa and uniting our people. [Bishop] Have you got anything to give us tonight about stopping the violence? I mean, if you had the opportunity to put it in a nutshell and fix it, what would you do? [Mandela] Well, we are not the government, you must understand. The task of maintaining law and order is that of the government, not of the ANC. We have no state power, we have no arms, we have no caspirs, and violence can only be effectively addressed by people who have these means. But within our capacity we have tried, to the best of our ability, as an organization to support the efforts which are made by a wide variety of organizations for peace. We will continue to do so, and that is why we are talking to all political parties -- those inside the negotiation process and those who stand outside because we want to avoid any danger of a civil war in this country. [Bishop] Well, that's taken as is, but it's also said by some of your critics that some of the SDUs [self-defense units], some of those young men have run out of control. You see in the headlines: Mafia groups, maverick young men, SDUs out of the control of the ANC. Comment? [Mandela] The problem about the SDUs only occurred within the last six months. People have been dying long before that. You must remember that we are dealing with a government which has a culture of intolerance. Freedom fighters have been dying since the early 60s. There are no less than about 200 people who have died in police custody from the 60s and a statement which was made by the late Dr. Gluckman, who had the opportunity to deal with these cases, a number of other freedom fighters like Neil Argot and Richard Turner, the Goniwes, all these were killed long before we had any complaint about the SDU. The complaint against the SDU is made primarily by the government and the National Party in order to divert attention from their own criminal negligence. [Bishop] But not entirely. Haven't you come and said, at least the ANC came out and said and admitted that some of those SDUs are out of control? [Mandela] No, you must put the matter in proper context. We have had the courage and honesty to say to the public that we have problems with SDUs, but you must understand that the SDUs are a community-based organization to protect the masses of the people after the government has failed to do its duty, and after the people have lost their belongings. They have come out in order to provide some measure of protection to the community. [Bishop] I think that's generally known, but it's been suggested that now you should instruct -- if that's the word -- some of your very senior men, perhaps in Umkhonto we Sizwe [Spear of the Nation -- ANC military wing] who have high profiles to go in there and sort it out. [Mandela] We have been there sorting things out. Last Tuesday we had that 10-hour meeting with the SDUs in that area, involving not only the ANC but the South African Communist Party, COSATU [Congress of South African Trade Unions], the mass democratic movement, and I ask you, what has the government done to address the question of violence? [Bishop] Before we move away from this violence, the Heidelberg massacres, the continuing attacks on civilians, the ever rising crime rate. Again I ask: What can we do? [Text] [Mandela] We are against any form of terrorism, and what has happened recently in connection with the tavern attacks is a matter that is going to be discussed by the Transitional Executive Council [TEC]. We are against any form of thuggery, and we have condemned it publicly in the strongest terms. [Bishop] The TEC now has some muscle, if I can use that [pauses] I mean it is an established organization, and you've been addressing the question of violence, I think. We are talking about a national peacekeeping force, we are talking about an integrated SAP-SADF [South African Police-South African Defense Force], Umkhonto we Sizwe, and other groups. How far off are we from that, because it strikes me... [Mandela, interrupting] Before I deal with that, let me just tell you about the report which was made by the commissioner of police from Natal, a report which has been tabled before the TEC. In that report he mentions that before the festive season he drew the attention of the government to the instability in Natal and felt that because the migrants were going back to Natal, this might create problems and aggravate the whole question of violence. He also got a legal opinion from senior council which showed that the South African Police can go into Natal and into the homelands without any restrictions. They are free to do so. [Bishop] Legally? [Mandela] Legally. And he also went further and identified areas where the IFP [Inkatha Freedom Party] and the kwaZulu police were responsible for this violence, and he mentioned that there was a self-defense unit in one area which was alleged also to be involved in violence, but he was honest and he said that there was no concrete evidence to support this allegation. Now that is a statement from a commissioner of police in Natal. And you must, therefore, look at the whole question of the SDUs from the point of view that we are facing an extraordinary situation where the government is working with criminals in order to destabilize the people in that region. [Bishop] Let's leave that now but stay in that region and ask you, when are you and Chief Minister Mangosuthu Buthelezi going to fix things up? [Mandela] Well, I have met Chief Buthelezi on three different occasions. I have done everything in my power to persuade him to come back and negotiate with us. But it is a false premise to think that this violence can be addressed by two people meeting. In no government in a country anywhere in the world will a government refrain from taking steps to maintain law and order and rely on two individuals. You don't find that anywhere. It is the task of the government to ensure that violence is stopped and that the slaughter of innocent people is immediately addressed by the government and settled. [Bishop] Do you still say that you will go ahead with the elections regardless of whether the Freedom Alliance is on board? [Mandela] We will persuade the Freedom Alliance to join in negotiations and to take part in the election. [Bishop] Can you do that? [Mandela] I am discussing with the ultra right. I have met General Viljoen, Dr. Ferdi Hartzenberg, Mr. Dries Bruwer, and I am discussing the whole question of the violence, their demand for a separate volkstaat [national state] and their participation in the election. I do so because it is absolutely necessary for all sections of our population, for all national groups to speak with one voice on the major national issues facing the country. [Bishop] Just seven minutes left, I have so much to ask you Mr. Mandela. Let's talk about the possibility that your party will probably, might -- whatever the expression is -- win the election. Let's make the presumption that you do. What kind of a South Africa, as far as the economy, will we have? You have done away with the idea of nationalization, but we hear a lot of talk about redistribution of wealth, a wealth tax and so forth. So what can be expected in that area? [Mandela] We are not concerned with labels. Our primary object is to address the social, economic problems facing our people, the question of unemployment which is 50 percent of the economically active population of the country, lack of housing, lack of education and medical facilities, and that is our object. That must be done by ensuring that the resources of the country are equally available to all South Africans irrespective of color or creed, and that is what we intend doing. [Bishop] But that requires money, doesn't it? And some economists are saying it requires free market style generated money, no more talk of a Marxist-Lenin command economy. Comment? [Mandela] We have never talked about a Marxist economy as the African National Congress. The people who say that we were once committed to a Marxist economy are either saying so because of ignorance or out of malice. Our concern is not to adopt any pattern from any other country. It is to address the real problems facing our country, and these are the problems I have referred to. We are already as a political organization far advanced in seeing organizations like the International Monetary Fund with whose president I met in September this year [as heard]. We have met the World Bank on several occasions to discuss the question of resources to be able to address this problem. I have met presidents like Mr. Bill Clinton, Prime Minister Major, President Mitterand and all of them I'm discussing questions, among others, of resources so that we can address the problems I have referred to. [Bishop] What are the assurances you are giving these top people about the economy? Are you saying don't worry, investment in, profit out, no problem? [Mandela] We are briefing them on the steps that we have taken to attract investments. I have pointed out to them that in May 1992 we issued an investment guide in which we guaranteed all investors against the confiscation of their properties. Secondly, that they will be entitled to repatriate their profit and dividends and that if an investor sold his business activities in the country, he will be entitled to repatriate them. [Bishop] Sorry, I've got to rush everything up, so much to ask. Quickly, the question of freedom of expression and in particular the control of the SABC [South African Broadcasting Corporation]. It's been said in certain quarters that the ANC now controls the SABC, that the National Party controlled it before, now it's the ANC. Does it control the SABC? [Mandela] I don't think so. This is a board that was set up by an independent selection panel composed of South Africans of the highest integrity. They are not members of the ANC, and they could not set up a board which is composed of members of the ANC. [Bishop] But they are pointing to three prominent and highly professional people who are closely connected to the ANC and who've just joined the SABC. Comment? [Mandela] Well, I think that as far as I'm aware, if you are talking about the three persons that I know, they have been selected because of their merit; not because of association with any political organization. [Bishop] To cut it short, you wouldn't [changes thought] Let's say you were the leader of the country in three or four months, you wouldn't lift the phone and tell news editors and other people what to do? [Mandela] The democratic culture is very much entrenched in the African National Congress. We believe in an independent media because we would like to look at the media as a mirror to see how we are functioning, and to control the media would be contrary to the fundamental principles of democracy, and it is for that that we have attacked the National Party's control of the SABC. [Bishop] Moving to another matter very quickly in the time left. The Afrikaners, what is wrong if a group of Afrikaners sincerely want to move away and live on their own? [Mandela] We are against ethnic solutions. [Bishop] Why? [Mandela] We have fought the bantustans system, and we have now overthrown that system. Even the Nationalist government which was the only government which recognized the bantustans has now agreed, and a clause has been entrenched in our constitution that all the bantustans, all the homelands -- self-governing and independent -- must now be reincorporated into South Africa. If we made an exception and gave in to the demand of the Afrikaners for a volkstaat [national state], we would be reopening the same thing. All the bantustans would put forward similar claims and you will break up South Africa into a number of different political entities which would destroy our economy. [Bishop] Just a few seconds left. What kind of message would you send now at this point in our history? [Mandela] We would like the spirit of reconciliation to be accepted by all South Africans. [Bishop] Not revenge? [Mandela] No. We have made the point very clearly that we are not here for retribution. We are here to try and contribute to the building of a new South Africa. [Bishop] Mr. Mandela, thank you very much indeed for coming along. Need I say that was Nelson Mandela of the Africa National Congress? Thanks for joining us and staying with us. Good night. [Mandela] Good night.