FBIS3-43551
"drafr006_c_94005"
FBIS-AFR-94-006
Document Type:Daily Report
10 Jan 1994
REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA
Mandela Interviewed on Violence, Economy, Politics
MB1001095094 Johannesburg SABC TV 1 Network in English 1815
GMT 9 Jan 94
MB1001095094
Johannesburg SABC TV 1 Network
Language: English
Article Type:BFN
[Interview with ANC President Nelson Mandela by SABC
presenter John Bishop, in the Johannesburg studio, on the Agenda
Program -- live]
[Text] [Bishop] Welcome back. Our promised interview with
Mr. Nelson Mandela, the ANC [African National Congress]
president, whose organization, I'm sure you know, has just
celebrated its 82d birthday, and issued a major policy
statement. As you probably also know all parties in the country
are gearing up for their promised elections, and the papers are
full of the contenders criticizing and attacking one another in
print. But there has been a serious attack earlier today at
Katlehong. When I welcome you Mr. Mandela I want to put that
question to you?
[Mandela] Thank you.
[Bishop] Your comments on that -- that Katlehong incident.
[Mandela] What happened today, to the secretary general of
the ANC, and the chairman of the South African Communist Party
[SACP], must be condemned in the strongest terms. It shows in a
very clear manner how the people in that area live. I spoke to
Mr. de Klerk today the moment Comrade Ramaphosa reported the
incident to me, and he had promised to go into the matter and
come back to me. I am meeting him on Tuesday morning, and I
have got a specific proposal to make to him. If he does not act
on that proposal, then South Africa is facing a crisis.
[Bishop] Can you give us any details of that?
[Mandela] It is better for me not to do so, and it will give
him the opportunity of examining the proposal, and deciding what
he should do about it, that he'll understand that we cannot
allow a situation where a hostel has now become the center of
the most blatant criminal action, and without the police doing
anything. What is going to be of interest, is what action the
police are going to take. Are they going to raid the hostel?
When are they going to do so? Will they in the course of that
raid seize the illegal weapons in that hostel? Arrest the
culprits? That is going to be very interesting.
[Bishop] Just to remind our viewers, if you've just tuned
in,
there's been a really awful attack at Katlehong earlier today.
One journalist was killed, several were wounded, and it was the
occasion when Mr. Slovo and Cyril Ramaphosa, and Carl Niehaus
and others, were walking towards the area, to inspect the area.
Is that it?
[Mandela] Yes, they went there to see for themselves how
people in this area are living in the light of the accusations
and counter- accusations that have been made. And I think that
the public now has got an idea of what is happing there, because
the shooting started from the hostel without any provocation.
[Bishop] What about the argument, I think that there is an
argument, that the ANC had constantly said they don't want the
police around them when they go and visit the people. Is there
anything in that argument?
[Mandela] There is no excuse for the police not doing their
duty of maintaining law and order.
[Bishop] They were told about the...
[Mandela, interrupting]...Whether we want the police to be
with us or not is irrelevant. The police should not allow any
people to fire at innocent residents going about with their
normal duties.
[Bishop] I think they were in fact informed. Were they?
Some of your people told me earlier...
[Text] [Mandela] On Friday the Regional Executive Committee
of the PWV [Pretoria, Witwatersrand, Vereeniging] area informed
the police. Even quite apart from that it was well publicized
that the secretary general and the chairman of the South African
Communist Party were visiting the area. If the police did not
know that they were visiting then they are not worth to be
policemen.
[Bishop] Well, of course, we have no police here, so we
better not keep it one-sided I think. Could I just leave it for
you at the moment? You are going to see everybody of course,
soon, about this, and leave this incident and move on to the
general question of violence in the country?
[Mandela] You're welcome.
[Bishop] Thank you. What are we going to do, Mr. Mandela?
First of all, can I suggest that all parties perhaps should stop
accusing each other? Is it possible to come to that kind of
agreement?
[Mandela] Before I answer your question, I want to state
very
clearly that whatever I'm going to say, my approach to problems,
my conduct and my statements are influenced by the objective of
building a new South Africa, of urging all leaders of various
political formations to join in trying to build a new South
Africa. I'm interested in stability both politically an
economically so that we can attract investment in our country,
because without those investments we are unable to make the
breakthrough which all of us desire. I am, therefore, going to
say that you can't avoid discussing the policies of other
political parties which are involved in the election. It
happens all over the world and South Africa is no exception.
But the point is that whatever we say must be influenced by the
idea of building a new South Africa and uniting our people.
[Bishop] Have you got anything to give us tonight about
stopping the violence? I mean, if you had the opportunity to
put it in a nutshell and fix it, what would you do?
[Mandela] Well, we are not the government, you must
understand. The task of maintaining law and order is that of the
government, not of the ANC. We have no state power, we have no
arms, we have no caspirs, and violence can only be effectively
addressed by people who have these means. But within our
capacity we have tried, to the best of our ability, as an
organization to support the efforts which are made by a wide
variety of organizations for peace. We will continue to do so,
and that is why we are talking to all political parties -- those
inside the negotiation process and those who stand outside
because we want to avoid any danger of a civil war in this
country.
[Bishop] Well, that's taken as is, but it's also said by
some
of your critics that some of the SDUs [self-defense units], some
of those young men have run out of control. You see in the
headlines: Mafia groups, maverick young men, SDUs out of the
control of the ANC. Comment?
[Mandela] The problem about the SDUs only occurred within
the
last six months. People have been dying long before that. You
must remember that we are dealing with a government which has a
culture of intolerance. Freedom fighters have been dying since
the early 60s. There are no less than about 200 people who have
died in police custody from the 60s and a statement which was
made by the late Dr. Gluckman, who had the opportunity to deal
with these cases, a number of other freedom fighters like Neil
Argot and Richard Turner, the Goniwes, all these were killed
long before we had any complaint about the SDU. The complaint
against the SDU is made primarily by the government and the
National Party in order to divert attention from their own
criminal negligence.
[Bishop] But not entirely. Haven't you come and said, at
least the ANC came out and said and admitted that some of those
SDUs are out of control?
[Mandela] No, you must put the matter in proper context. We
have had the courage and honesty to say to the public that we
have problems with SDUs, but you must understand that the SDUs
are a community-based organization to protect the masses of the
people after the government has failed to do its duty, and after
the people have lost their belongings. They have come out in
order to provide some measure of protection to the community.
[Bishop] I think that's generally known, but it's been
suggested that now you should instruct -- if that's the word --
some of your very senior men, perhaps in Umkhonto we Sizwe
[Spear of the Nation -- ANC military wing] who have high
profiles to go in there and sort it out.
[Mandela] We have been there sorting things out. Last
Tuesday we had that 10-hour meeting with the SDUs in that area,
involving not only the ANC but the South African Communist
Party, COSATU [Congress of South African Trade Unions], the mass
democratic movement, and I ask you, what has the government done
to address the question of violence?
[Bishop] Before we move away from this violence, the
Heidelberg massacres, the continuing attacks on civilians, the
ever rising crime rate. Again I ask: What can we do?
[Text] [Mandela] We are against any form of terrorism, and
what has happened recently in connection with the tavern attacks
is a matter that is going to be discussed by the Transitional
Executive Council [TEC]. We are against any form of thuggery,
and we have condemned it publicly in the strongest terms.
[Bishop] The TEC now has some muscle, if I can use that
[pauses] I mean it is an established organization, and you've
been addressing the question of violence, I think. We are
talking about a national peacekeeping force, we are talking
about an integrated SAP-SADF [South African Police-South African
Defense Force], Umkhonto we Sizwe, and other groups. How far
off are we from that, because it strikes me...
[Mandela, interrupting] Before I deal with that, let me just
tell you about the report which was made by the commissioner of
police from Natal, a report which has been tabled before the
TEC. In that report he mentions that before the festive season
he drew the attention of the government to the instability in
Natal and felt that because the migrants were going back to
Natal, this might create problems and aggravate the whole
question of violence. He also got a legal opinion from senior
council which showed that the South African Police can go into
Natal and into the homelands without any restrictions. They are
free to do so.
[Bishop] Legally?
[Mandela] Legally. And he also went further and identified
areas where the IFP [Inkatha Freedom Party] and the kwaZulu
police were responsible for this violence, and he mentioned that
there was a self-defense unit in one area which was alleged also
to be involved in violence, but he was honest and he said that
there was no concrete evidence to support this allegation. Now
that is a statement from a commissioner of police in Natal. And
you must, therefore, look at the whole question of the SDUs from
the point of view that we are facing an extraordinary situation
where the government is working with criminals in order to
destabilize the people in that region.
[Bishop] Let's leave that now but stay in that region and
ask
you, when are you and Chief Minister Mangosuthu Buthelezi going
to fix things up?
[Mandela] Well, I have met Chief Buthelezi on three
different
occasions. I have done everything in my power to persuade him
to come back and negotiate with us. But it is a false premise
to think that this violence can be addressed by two people
meeting. In no government in a country anywhere in the world
will a government refrain from taking steps to maintain law and
order and rely on two individuals. You don't find that
anywhere. It is the task of the government to ensure that
violence is stopped and that the slaughter of innocent people is
immediately addressed by the government and settled.
[Bishop] Do you still say that you will go ahead with the
elections regardless of whether the Freedom Alliance is on board?
[Mandela] We will persuade the Freedom Alliance to join in
negotiations and to take part in the election.
[Bishop] Can you do that?
[Mandela] I am discussing with the ultra right. I have met
General Viljoen, Dr. Ferdi Hartzenberg, Mr. Dries Bruwer, and I
am discussing the whole question of the violence, their demand
for a separate volkstaat [national state] and their
participation in the election. I do so because it is absolutely
necessary for all sections of our population, for all national
groups to speak with one voice on the major national issues
facing the country.
[Bishop] Just seven minutes left, I have so much to ask you
Mr. Mandela. Let's talk about the possibility that your party
will probably, might -- whatever the expression is -- win the
election. Let's make the presumption that you do. What kind of
a South Africa, as far as the economy, will we have? You have
done away with the idea of nationalization, but we hear a lot of
talk about redistribution of wealth, a wealth tax and so forth.
So what can be expected in that area?
[Mandela] We are not concerned with labels. Our primary
object is to address the social, economic problems facing our
people, the question of unemployment which is 50 percent of the
economically active population of the country, lack of housing,
lack of education and medical facilities, and that is our
object. That must be done by ensuring that the resources of the
country are equally available to all South Africans irrespective
of color or creed, and that is what we intend doing.
[Bishop] But that requires money, doesn't it? And some
economists are saying it requires free market style generated
money, no more talk of a Marxist-Lenin command economy. Comment?
[Mandela] We have never talked about a Marxist economy as
the
African National Congress. The people who say that we were once
committed to a Marxist economy are either saying so because of
ignorance or out of malice. Our concern is not to adopt any
pattern from any other country. It is to address the real
problems facing our country, and these are the problems I have
referred to. We are already as a political organization far
advanced in seeing organizations like the International Monetary
Fund with whose president I met in September this year [as
heard]. We have met the World Bank on several occasions to
discuss the question of resources to be able to address this
problem. I have met presidents like Mr. Bill Clinton, Prime
Minister Major, President Mitterand and all of them I'm
discussing questions, among others, of resources so that we can
address the problems I have referred to.
[Bishop] What are the assurances you are giving these top
people about the economy? Are you saying don't worry,
investment in, profit out, no problem?
[Mandela] We are briefing them on the steps that we have
taken to attract investments. I have pointed out to them that
in May 1992 we issued an investment guide in which we guaranteed
all investors against the confiscation of their properties.
Secondly, that they will be entitled to repatriate their profit
and dividends and that if an investor sold his business
activities in the country, he will be entitled to repatriate
them.
[Bishop] Sorry, I've got to rush everything up, so much to
ask. Quickly, the question of freedom of expression and in
particular the control of the SABC [South African Broadcasting
Corporation]. It's been said in certain quarters that the ANC
now controls the SABC, that the National Party controlled it
before, now it's the ANC. Does it control the SABC?
[Mandela] I don't think so. This is a board that was set up
by an independent selection panel composed of South Africans of
the highest integrity. They are not members of the ANC, and
they could not set up a board which is composed of members of
the ANC.
[Bishop] But they are pointing to three prominent and highly
professional people who are closely connected to the ANC and
who've just joined the SABC. Comment?
[Mandela] Well, I think that as far as I'm aware, if you are
talking about the three persons that I know, they have been
selected because of their merit; not because of association with
any political organization.
[Bishop] To cut it short, you wouldn't [changes thought]
Let's say you were the leader of the country in three or four
months, you wouldn't lift the phone and tell news editors and
other people what to do?
[Mandela] The democratic culture is very much entrenched in
the African National Congress. We believe in an independent
media because we would like to look at the media as a mirror to
see how we are functioning, and to control the media would be
contrary to the fundamental principles of democracy, and it is
for that that we have attacked the National Party's control of
the SABC.
[Bishop] Moving to another matter very quickly in the time
left. The Afrikaners, what is wrong if a group of Afrikaners
sincerely want to move away and live on their own?
[Mandela] We are against ethnic solutions.
[Bishop] Why?
[Mandela] We have fought the bantustans system, and we have
now overthrown that system. Even the Nationalist government
which was the only government which recognized the bantustans
has now agreed, and a clause has been entrenched in our
constitution that all the bantustans, all the homelands --
self-governing and independent -- must now be reincorporated
into South Africa. If we made an exception and gave in to the
demand of the Afrikaners for a volkstaat [national state], we
would be reopening the same thing. All the bantustans would put
forward similar claims and you will break up South Africa into a
number of different political entities which would destroy our
economy.
[Bishop] Just a few seconds left. What kind of message would
you send now at this point in our history?
[Mandela] We would like the spirit of reconciliation to be
accepted by all South Africans.
[Bishop] Not revenge?
[Mandela] No. We have made the point very clearly that we
are not here for retribution. We are here to try and contribute
to the building of a new South Africa.
[Bishop] Mr. Mandela, thank you very much indeed for coming
along. Need I say that was Nelson Mandela of the Africa
National Congress? Thanks for joining us and staying with us.
Good night.
[Mandela] Good night.